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post #16 of 42 (permalink) Old Jul 7th, 15, 8:02 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Convertible Top Switch

Gotcha... Not sure about the '69, but on a '72, just need to take out the ashtray and the switch is right there... hardest thing is getting my hand thru the opening to get to the nuts. I'm just surprised AWW or someone else hasn't assembled something like this to sell... or at least I just haven't found them yet.

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post #17 of 42 (permalink) Old Jul 7th, 15, 8:23 PM
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Re: Convertible Top Switch

Quote:
Originally Posted by wambams69ss396 View Post
here is the schematic for the 5 pin relay installed under the dash.
That schematic would not be correct for the factory application.

That shows a ground is provided to the motor via the relays. It depicts a simple 2-wire motor where both connection legs are controlled.

Jim S. 's set-up is how it should be constructed. The factory pumps have a dedicated ground. One power wire for up, and one power wire for down.

Each relay's #85 would go to a good ground. Each relay's #30 would splice into the main power feed coming thru the firewall from the firewall mounted circuit breaker. Also spliced into this main power coming into the car would be the common input to the convertible top switch.

The "up" wire out from the switch in the dash would go to the "up" relay's #86 terminal. The down wire out from the switch in the dash would go to the "down" relay's #86 terminal. The "up" relay #87 terminal would go the original "up" wire headed directly to the pump motor. The "down" relay #87 terminal would go to the original "down" wire headed directly to the pump motor.

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post #18 of 42 (permalink) Old Jul 7th, 15, 10:51 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Convertible Top Switch

Thanks for the double check Joe...

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post #19 of 42 (permalink) Old Jul 8th, 15, 11:37 PM
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Re: Convertible Top Switch

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coppertop View Post
That schematic would not be correct for the factory application.

That shows a ground is provided to the motor via the relays. It depicts a simple 2-wire motor where both connection legs are controlled.

Jim S. 's set-up is how it should be constructed. The factory pumps have a dedicated ground. One power wire for up, and one power wire for down.

Each relay's #85 would go to a good ground. Each relay's #30 would splice into the main power feed coming thru the firewall from the firewall mounted circuit breaker. Also spliced into this main power coming into the car would be the common input to the convertible top switch.

The "up" wire out from the switch in the dash would go to the "up" relay's #86 terminal. The down wire out from the switch in the dash would go to the "down" relay's #86 terminal. The "up" relay #87 terminal would go the original "up" wire headed directly to the pump motor. The "down" relay #87 terminal would go to the original "down" wire headed directly to the pump motor.
Joe that schematic was not mine it was copied off another thread relating to the topic.i really don't want to do this for the fourth time, i just want to make sure i get this right.so here is a schematic drawing of your thought on the relay for the convertible top switch.since this drawing is for a 4 pin relay how would i make a 5 pin relay work.is the way i have it drawn correct or do i have to do something with pin 87A?let me know your thoughts.

thanks

Billy

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post #20 of 42 (permalink) Old Jul 9th, 15, 10:46 AM
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Re: Convertible Top Switch

Not trying to be offensive here but before you start altering the factory wiring circuit i would strongly suggest you read the GM convert top manual supplement for trouble shooting fundamentals of your switch replacement issues.
Your obviously over amping the up/down switch(s) suggest you should check the following:

1) Top mechanism adjustment; set for ease of proper working effort
a) Check bushings at all pivot points for lubrication and wear ease of effort
b) Check mechanism for any bent linkage.
c) Check hydraulic cylinders for binding, leaks even actuation effort(disconect from top mechanism to test)
d) Check hydraulic fluid and lines signs of age, leaks, pinching? Has the fluid even been flushed or changed? Do you have enough fluid in the system(or to much)?

2) Top motor Wiring Harness and connections
a) Check condition of main top motor harness wires, all related connectors, all related connections and ground for wear, corrosion or black death.

3) Top Motor pump condition
a) Does it leak or pump slowly? Older motors can be cleaned and rebuilt inexpensively(Hydro-E-Lectric)
b) If the pump motor has been replaced is it the correct model?

When i restored my 71 vert in 2012-13 i went through the top mechansim replaced all factory plastic bushings with new or oilite equivalents. Straightened all the bent linkage. Bought new cylinders, lines and replaced the top motor harness. The modern replacement motors don't look like the originals so i opted to rebuild and restore my original. After filling, bleeding out air bubbles and cycling the cylinders(disconnected) top goes up and down like butter no issues (with a 44 year-old motor).

......._________
.../ /__________\ \
</______________\>
..| O O __ss__ O O |
..\_____|___|_____/
....|__|. . . . . .|__|


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post #21 of 42 (permalink) Old Jul 9th, 15, 11:01 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Convertible Top Switch

Very good points... I'm planning on either rebuilding or replacing the pump motor and top cylinders depending on condition when I start to fix/repair/replace the switch and add relays... I realize I'll need to find the root cause for the switch burning up, otherwise it's cause some other part to fail in the future.
Thanks,
Don

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post #22 of 42 (permalink) Old Jul 9th, 15, 5:38 PM
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Re: Convertible Top Switch

Quote:
Originally Posted by K.R.Joye View Post
Not trying to be offensive here but before you start altering the factory wiring circuit i would strongly suggest you read the GM convert top manual supplement for trouble shooting fundamentals of your switch replacement issues.
Your obviously over amping the up/down switch(s) suggest you should check the following:

1) Top mechanism adjustment; set for ease of proper working effort
a) Check bushings at all pivot points for lubrication and wear ease of effort
b) Check mechanism for any bent linkage.
c) Check hydraulic cylinders for binding, leaks even actuation effort(disconect from top mechanism to test)
d) Check hydraulic fluid and lines signs of age, leaks, pinching? Has the fluid even been flushed or changed? Do you have enough fluid in the system(or to much)?

2) Top motor Wiring Harness and connections
a) Check condition of main top motor harness wires, all related connectors, all related connections and ground for wear, corrosion or black death.

3) Top Motor pump condition
a) Does it leak or pump slowly? Older motors can be cleaned and rebuilt inexpensively(Hydro-E-Lectric)
b) If the pump motor has been replaced is it the correct model?

When i restored my 71 vert in 2012-13 i went through the top mechansim replaced all factory plastic bushings with new or oilite equivalents. Straightened all the bent linkage. Bought new cylinders, lines and replaced the top motor harness. The modern replacement motors don't look like the originals so i opted to rebuild and restore my original. After filling, bleeding out air bubbles and cycling the cylinders(disconnected) top goes up and down like butter no issues (with a 44 year-old motor).
thanks but when i did the restoration on the car/top i used the Fisher body manual to make sure it was installed and properly adjusted.plus every thing is new - pump,lines,cylinders,switch, i rebuilt the old frame and made sure all pivot point were well lubed.my feeling is the new pumps are drawing more amps and the switches are cheaply made.

when i want to drop the top i have to run a jumper wire from the battery to pump.the top goes up and down freely with no problems at all.if you do a thread search other people have had the same problem with these new switches.

Billy

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post #23 of 42 (permalink) Old Jul 10th, 15, 10:23 AM
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Re: Convertible Top Switch

Wow, wasn't aware of quality issues with repro top switches. That may explains why NOS switches fetch decent $. I'll be hanging onto my spare.
Also surprised there isn't anyone in the vintage top`motor' restoration/rebuilding business. Makes more sense to rebuild the originals if decent core is available.

......._________
.../ /__________\ \
</______________\>
..| O O __ss__ O O |
..\_____|___|_____/
....|__|. . . . . .|__|


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(Body-off / Documented Matching#s w/3 Build Sheets)
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post #24 of 42 (permalink) Old Jul 10th, 15, 11:29 PM
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Re: Convertible Top Switch

Quote:
Originally Posted by K.R.Joye View Post
Wow, wasn't aware of quality issues with repro top switches. That may explains why NOS switches fetch decent $. I'll be hanging onto my spare.
Also surprised there isn't anyone in the vintage top`motor' restoration/rebuilding business. Makes more sense to rebuild the originals if decent core is available.
i should have and could have rebuilt my switch and motor.the only thing i thought was a new parts would be better.not so sure about that now.....

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post #25 of 42 (permalink) Old Jul 12th, 15, 2:11 PM
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Re: Convertible Top Switch

Billy,

You drew the schematic correctly. The 87a terminals (normally closed) are simply not used.

If one wanted to alter the wiring so the top can only be operated with the key "on" , the main power into the actual switch would be tied to a switched ignition source like the the IGN slot on the fuse box rather then tied back into the main incoming power.


K.R. had some excellent advice, however even if the system is operating to proper specs, the original design was sub-par and done so for cost savings. By not using relays, the full load of the motor windings is flowing thru the switch contacts. Even with heavy duty contacts, motors represent an inductive load which causes a nice "arc" with each operation which pitts the contacts causing premature failure. This is the same reason for all the issues with the factory blower switches in the HVAC control panel.

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post #26 of 42 (permalink) Old Jul 12th, 15, 3:41 PM
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Re: Convertible Top Switch

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coppertop View Post
Billy,

You drew the schematic correctly. The 87a terminals (normally closed) are simply not used.

If one wanted to alter the wiring so the top can only be operated with the key "on" , the main power into the actual switch would be tied to a switched ignition source like the the IGN slot on the fuse box rather then tied back into the main incoming power.


K.R. had some excellent advice, however even if the system is operating to proper specs, the original design was sub-par and done so for cost savings. By not using relays, the full load of the motor windings is flowing thru the switch contacts. Even with heavy duty contacts, motors represent an inductive load which causes a nice "arc" with each operation which pitts the contacts causing premature failure. This is the same reason for all the issues with the factory blower switches in the HVAC control panel.

thanks joe for your response.
guys i will post some pictures of my relay setup when i am finished.

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post #27 of 42 (permalink) Old Jul 12th, 15, 7:01 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Convertible Top Switch

Well after failing to find the 3-prong male and female connector to splice into the circuit at the back of the switch, I decide to splice into the harness where the converible top switch harness connects into the wiring harness. I ordered the Packard connectors and crimp tool since I didn't have one for the F type connectors and sketched up the below based off Billy, Jim & Joes input. This will still allow me to take it out and reconnect the original harness together.
Thanks for the help guys...
Don
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post #28 of 42 (permalink) Old Jul 12th, 15, 8:58 PM
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Re: Convertible Top Switch

I was hoping you might find the male and female to make connections at the switch but I thought that how the design was no one really made the male pin connector (sorta like finding a similar connector for use on some of the GM power window switches which also have a connector that is close to your switch connections style).

Anyway, if you can solder, maybe after crimping on the ends to the wire, solder them. They might not ever go south for many years but it something to possibly do, if you can.

Maybe too, look at getting some relay sockets that interlock to each other so that now you have more or less a relay assembly that might be easier to mount and if a relay would fail, it would be easier to replace.

Take plenty of pictures and post them when you can.

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post #29 of 42 (permalink) Old Jul 13th, 15, 11:43 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Convertible Top Switch

Me too, I thought there would be other applications that would have them. I will be soldering the connections as well. I did the same on the home made harness I made for a 3-speed manual with electric overdrive I put in my previous car. I figure with the current it was carrying, it couldn't hurt.
Once I get all the pieces I'll try to locate a handy spot to install and shoot a pic or two.

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post #30 of 42 (permalink) Old Jul 13th, 15, 11:47 AM
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Re: Convertible Top Switch

You could do it with a simple single pole, double throw, center off toggle switch much easier.
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