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The end of one era and the beginning of another....

25K views 145 replies 68 participants last post by  Tom Mobley 
#1 ·
Well I blew up my Mark Jones 498. I won't be tearing it apart for a while. I am in the dog house. lol Today was my wife and I's anniversary and I blew the car up. Not good. I should have seen the signs but everything seemed fine. Last week my oil pressure did something funny for a second. Replaced the line and all was well. I guess it wasn't. Today, the car was running about 10 degrees warmer than usual. Still was only running about 185 deg. but usually only runs around 170.

First pass was a 6.37, second pass was a 6.52, 3rd pass was a 6.63. I should have known something wasn't right but thought maybe the convertor was just hot. 4th pass go up to do my burnout and the car dies. It never dies...so I told them to open the gate I was going to pull off and I should have I guess. Anyways I started it back up and it seemed fine so I went ahead and went to do my burnout. I started in 2nd and the second I shifted the 3rd there was a loud explosion, the car immediately died and smoke rolled out from under the hood and side of the car very thick.

I had oil and water gushing out the side of my oil pan. I assume I threw a rod. So I called my buddy who just sold his car and he came and towed me home on his trailer. The only real thing that sucks is that King of the Street is next week. I missed that friggin race 3 years in a row now.

Now before everyone or anyone starts bashing on my engine builder...don't bother. I don't blame any on the builder but at the same time I am done with this particular big block. The common denominator in all 4 engines is the block. I hope I blew the block to pieces personally. I drove this car very hard and raced it hard and I wouldn't have changed it for the world. However, the amount of money I put into it and it only last 7 months, I am not going to do it again.

I now have friends that are big into the turbo builds and will start planning to build a 6.0 and a turbo. The goal will be simple. 5.90's and 20mpg. I figure it will cost me a whole lot less and I can still drive it on the street as much as I want. I still plan on E85. E85 doesn't cause you to throw a rod. For all I know my crankshaft busted in half. The motor is completely siezed.

I plan to sell the heads, intake, convertor, trans, carb, etc...I still think I can sell all my stuff and build the engine I want. Plus, if I blow it up, I go back to the junk yard and buy another $400 short block instead of being out $8k.

LS Turbo here I come. I always wanted one and plan to have one ready to go by this comeing April. My Mark Jones 498 was fun while it lasted. :yes:
 
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#72 ·
Instead of crying about somones KNOWN, great craftmanship.. I think I will add something, positive/ progressive to the thread.

I see you race at Mokan, with Bob quite often. I hope to meet you guys in the near future, as Tulsa Raceway Park will be closing. But with that said.

Im, alll about turbo LS power.. And am not very far away from you guys, over here in NE Oklahoma. But i thought i would throw this out there, seen this for sale today.. Looks like a stellar deal, especially with you potentially recouping most of this money from the get go. Have a look, sorry if this is against the rules to link another forums for sale thread.. P.M me if that be the case. But this is a stellar deal aswell as would be a major jump to Del getting back on the road with what he wants.

http://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?83013-turbo-setup-1972-Chevelle-w-ls-motor
 
#74 ·
on the whole E85 debate... I have seen way more good then bad with all the builds i have seen on it. the bad has always been from tune. what i have seen with E85 is there no need to push it to the ragged edge as the gains are not near what they are with gas. so a nice mild safe tune and they seem to life a long life good example are three cars running around here the lowest HP one makes 450 to the wheels in a honda and runs 10.9 @ 132 next is one that makes 630 to the wheel and one making 650 all get beat on weekly raced and never have troubles other then spitting driveline parts out here and there. and those are just three friends of mine. E85 is so prevalant around here ton of people run it and i have yet to hear of one failure that was cause by the fuel. I have heard of a few that fail from tuning.
 
#75 · (Edited)
[quote=blasttime;3325389]That was so touching but I would like to add this link [/quote]

I think using the greatest voice in the world, attached to all this BS / Karma:yes: is just wrong.
I think the song below is much more appropriate. FRANCIS ALBERT SINATRA, for an engine that was never tunned right, after it left the builder, and his specificatations..):sad: Engines break,you can't fix stupid, it's the nature of the beast.
 
#77 ·
Okay. Been pretty busy. I have read all the threads. Let me say this first. The builder is off the hook, however, everyone on here knows how I drive my car and how I said I was going to drive my car. We also know that E85 has always been in the mix. Either street driving or racing it.

I am about to post pictures but based on what I am about to post and keep in mind we have not pulled the pan yet, I admit I could be wrong. This is my opinion. What is it? A water passage broke. You will see that crack in the cylinder. The cylinder filled with water and all hell broke loose. One cylinder had the piston go completely through the side of the block. Now, that isn't E85, so get off the fuel. I am not blaming the builder so quit blaming the fuel. My engine got thrashed on the dyno at 37-38 degrees timing. I ran it at 34 most the time. My rev limiter was set low on the street. I can have 200 racers from the track that will tell you that my engine was very well tuned on E85.

What bothers me if this is the case is the fact that I did not want to use this block from the get go. I offered to pay for a new block. Keep in mind this is the same cylinder that the last two engines detonated pistons in. Same cylinder. That isn't a coincidence. If the water jacket was thin in that area we shouldn't have used this block. It wasn't the fuel that caused this block to fail it was using a block that shouldn't have been used. Tell me how E85 causes a water passage to fail? Now before everyone starts hammering. Mark new about a water jacket area being thin and I basically begged not to use my block. I offered to pay for a new block to be machined.

I'm not sure if this is a big deal or not. But my distributor doesn't have a bronze gear. Solid Roller cam and no bronze gear. It may not be much but I'm pretty sure that is a no, no.... It is what it is, but it wasn't the fuel. It is obvious that Mark has mentioned the fuel or all his supporters wouldn't keep mentioning it. The engine was bad ass and I rented it for $1200 per month for the last 7 months. I am okay with it, but if you keep saying it was the fuel and that I didn't treat it right, then I will happy to post more. I suggest we leave it as the engine failed and I have moved on.

I am sure I mentioned plenty of times before the engine was built that I would STREET drive this and that I would RACE it, all on E85. Sometimes Mark wanted to move towards Alky or Race gas and that's fine but he isn't driving it. I am.

No bronze gear.






Piston through the side of the block


Water Jacket on the same cylinder that blew in the previous two engines.


Heads still look good luckily.


 
#87 ·
Okay. Been pretty busy. I have read all the threads. Let me say this first. The builder is off the hook, however, everyone on here knows how I drive my car and how I said I was going to drive my car. We also know that E85 has always been in the mix. Either street driving or racing it.

I am about to post pictures but based on what I am about to post and keep in mind we have not pulled the pan yet, I admit I could be wrong. This is my opinion. What is it? A water passage broke. You will see that crack in the cylinder. The cylinder filled with water and all hell broke loose. One cylinder had the piston go completely through the side of the block. Now, that isn't E85, so get off the fuel. I am not blaming the builder so quit blaming the fuel. My engine got thrashed on the dyno at 37-38 degrees timing. I ran it at 34 most the time. My rev limiter was set low on the street. I can have 200 racers from the track that will tell you that my engine was very well tuned on E85.

What bothers me if this is the case is the fact that I did not want to use this block from the get go. I offered to pay for a new block. Keep in mind this is the same cylinder that the last two engines detonated pistons in. Same cylinder. That isn't a coincidence. If the water jacket was thin in that area we shouldn't have used this block. It wasn't the fuel that caused this block to fail it was using a block that shouldn't have been used. Tell me how E85 causes a water passage to fail? Now before everyone starts hammering. Mark new about a water jacket area being thin and I basically begged not to use my block. I offered to pay for a new block to be machined.

I'm not sure if this is a big deal or not. But my distributor doesn't have a bronze gear. Solid Roller cam and no bronze gear. It may not be much but I'm pretty sure that is a no, no.... It is what it is, but it wasn't the fuel. It is obvious that Mark has mentioned the fuel or all his supporters wouldn't keep mentioning it. The engine was bad ass and I rented it for $1200 per month for the last 7 months. I am okay with it, but if you keep saying it was the fuel and that I didn't treat it right, then I will happy to post more. I suggest we leave it as the engine failed and I have moved on.

I am sure I mentioned plenty of times before the engine was built that I would STREET drive this and that I would RACE it, all on E85. Sometimes Mark wanted to move towards Alky or Race gas and that's fine but he isn't driving it. I am.

No bronze gear.






Piston through the side of the block


Water Jacket on the same cylinder that blew in the previous two engines.


Heads still look good luckily.
aint this a b****?

it shonuff is

if the block was used, and the heads were yours... what exactly did you get for 8000 is what im trying to figure out

good luck on the next step. im doing a 6.0 myself
 
#79 ·
Thanks Nick. Yeah I was about sick. So far the heads, lifters, look to be fine. Not sure about the cam or crank yet. Hopeful on the cam but not so much on the crank.
 
#80 ·
oh man
would not have guessed that :confused:

once again...sorry man


is it just that one cylinder?
if the crank and cam is ok are you going to reconsider and rebuild with a new block?

that thing was a runner!
 
#81 ·
It is two cylinders. The cylinder that had the piston smash through the cylinder wall and the #4 cylinder that the water jacket passage broke through.

No. I am done with Big Blocks. I am moving to the dark side and have already started on a 5.3 twin turbo set up. I have put too much money in the short blocks and when they blow you are just **** out of luck. My ol lady is just about ready for a divorce. seriously. This time I plan to sell everything that is good and build this next engine just off those funds for the most part. I get 5 emails a day right now wanting to buy my heads, intake, lifters, cam, rockers, distributor, headers, etc.. Any items that are still good. I think the price I get for all that stuff I can pretty much finance this next build and hope to destroy the kind of times I put out with the big block but be able to drive it anywhere that I want to without hearing about how bad E85 is.
 
#89 ·
Del, if you think you are just gonna dump a bunch of boost in a stock ls motor, drive it forever and race it hard....and not have any engine problem, you are nuts man....I can't convey this strongly enough, LS motors are not the end all/be all engines that just do everything right and never blow up...especially stock bottom ends and damn sure not on boost.

The mindset you are in right now about just throwing in a stocker and boosting the crap out of it, running 5s, driving it all around and never having a problem is just gonna cause you more grief....you will blow up/melt more crap then you ever did with a bb. Don't believe all of the Internet/YouTube heroes saying you can just drop in a junkyard motor, run mid 9s and never worry about.... It's all BS... Sure, it MAY survive a pass or two but.... It ain't worth swapping motors all the time, nor running the risk of a high speed crash.

Although I am afraid you may have to kill a few 5.3s before you believe me.;)
 
#92 ·
I'd be a little leary of running those lifters with all that debris that was floating around. Better issue a couple of disclaimers to the potential buyers
 
#94 ·
I don't think the distributor gear was the problem, it looked fine to me. Most new billet roller cams have a cast gear pressed on so you can run the cast gear that comes on most distributors. No need for a bronze gear and that gear doesn't looked chewed up to me. Looks like that piston ran into something the way the dome is broken. Usually see a valve head in the cylinder when it looks like that. I guess maybe the rod cap let go and it slammed into the chamber on the way up. I know it may not make you feel better, but at least your getting to drive your car some. I've been spending about a grand a month on mine for over three years and it's still not done. That may be an exageration on the money spent but it sure seems like a grand everytime I turn around. I sure hope it isn't just the e-85 causing you this grief. It sure beats the heck out of spending 10 bucks a gallon for race gas. The e-85 would be the only way I can drive my car on the street some.
 
#100 ·
Okay....I guess we are going to go this route. So much for not posting.

1. I never said anything about milk in the oil. I changed the oil almost monthly. Matter of fact, I changed oil the day before it blew up and that oil was only a month old. There was never milk in the oil. I always let it warm up to burn off the condensation.

2. Are you saying I didn't mention to you that I wasn't going to street drive this car 2-300 miles per week. I am sure I can find some old threads where I said that is exactly what I was going to do.

3. YOU mentioned to me that YOU were worried about a water jacket and if I had ever had water in any of the cylinders. At that point I begged you to use a different block. You said no need to. YOUR the builder. Guess what Mark, the water jacket broke.

4. YOU also forgot to mention that all the parts in my engine when you got it....They were only 3 months old. You mentioned that the bearings and a rod looked bad. I have the email that you sent me if you want me to copy and paste it. We went from that to you replacing all the rods, pistons, valves, everything. Each email, you kept telling me more and more needed to be replaced. Guess what. I listened to you because you said if I wanted my engine to last I needed to replace the 3k bottom end that was just put in there. Wouldn't it had been better just to have bought a complete engine package from you and I could have sold all that stuff and got most my money back. Instead you threw everything in a tub together like it was garbage. Guess what. I sold it and when he took it to the machine shop. Two pistons and 1 rod was bad. That was it. Hmmm.

Finally, you approached me about my engine and problems. Not the other way around. Last time I checked I was running E85 then. You never mentioned a problem with E85 until we were several thousands of dollars into the build. Again, I have the emails if you would like me to search for them and copy and paste.

You are off the hook. I am not asking any money or compensation from you But don't put blame on me. The pictures tell the story. No signs of detonation. If you didn't feel comfortable building an E85 engine you shouldn't have done it.

Oh and one more thing. I have different brand push rods in there. I am pretty sure I paid for a set of push rods. You also replaced all the valves in the new Brodix Heads I purchased from Mike Lewis. There was never any damage to the head but you felt that after 3 months the valves, retainers, and springs all needed to be replaced. That one always confused me a little. Brand new heads, 3 months old, hmmm... Just food for thought.
 
#101 · (Edited)
Okay....I guess we are going to go this route. So much for not posting.

1. I never said anything about milk in the oil. I changed the oil almost monthly. Matter of fact, I changed oil the day before it blew up and that oil was only a month old. There was never milk in the oil. I always let it warm up to burn off the condensation.

2. Are you saying I didn't mention to you that I wasn't going to street drive this car 2-300 miles per week. I am sure I can find some old threads where I said that is exactly what I was going to do.

3. YOU mentioned to me that YOU were worried about a water jacket and if I had ever had water in any of the cylinders. At that point I begged you to use a different block. You said no need to. YOUR the builder. Guess what Mark, the water jacket broke.

4. YOU also forgot to mention that all the parts in my engine when you got it....They were only 3 months old. You mentioned that the bearings and a rod looked bad. I have the email that you sent me if you want me to copy and paste it. We went from that to you replacing all the rods, pistons, valves, everything. Each email, you kept telling me more and more needed to be replaced. Guess what. I listened to you because you said if I wanted my engine to last I needed to replace the 3k bottom end that was just put in there. Wouldn't it had been better just to have bought a complete engine package from you and I could have sold all that stuff and got most my money back. Instead you threw everything in a tub together like it was garbage. Guess what. I sold it and when he took it to the machine shop. Two pistons and 1 rod was bad. That was it. Hmmm.

Finally, you approached me about my engine and problems. Not the other way around. Last time I checked I was running E85 then. You never mentioned a problem with E85 until we were several thousands of dollars into the build. Again, I have the emails if you would like me to search for them and copy and paste.

You are off the hook. I am not asking any money or compensation from you But don't put blame on me. The pictures tell the story. No signs of detonation. If you didn't feel comfortable building an E85 engine you shouldn't have done it.
Worried about the water jacket? Come on, I was worried about the helicoils in the deck torqing correct, after I had to fix your torched head. I told you as soon as you mentioned using E85 I didnt want mess with it, also after actually reading your threads after receiving your engine, I was very reluctant to build the engine, but your are a very nice person and I couldnt say no after you already had shipped the engine to me. Why was your oil milky? Again Im sorry you had a problem, but I just dont do things the way you do, and generally I just dont have these problems. Del, you had cast crank with a spun rod, two SRP pistons with the ring lands ripped off them, rods that were spun or trying to spin, milodon oil pan, bent valves, a harmonic balancer with a spap ring in it, come on it was junk. I would suggest you post pictures of all the bearings along with the bottoms of the main caps, I think that will tell the story. Del I never really read your posts until I had your engine in my shop, is there an engine builder on the face of the earth that would say its no problem to run a 730 lift roller on a the street with 700 pounds of open pressure as a daily driver, I think all the bearings will be torn up. I think you should dig up our correspondence and post it. How do you figure no detonation? Lets have a look at those main cap bottoms, how did your head get torched?
 
#105 ·
Yes. Mark that is a picture from the previous build. Not your build. I blew a head gasket the first time out. Yet it seemed to last for the next 6 months on the same fuel. I am glad you called all that stuff junk. That is all the stuff Chris Straub and Mike Lewis sold me. The pistons were forged JE pistons, The crank, rods, pistons was a rotating assembly that I bought from Mike Lewis and had 3 months on it. You through in a bucket and said it was garbage.

I am glad you mentioned Heli coils. You charged me for $200+ for heli coils. Again, I begged not to use the block. The block was junk. Same cylinder, same cylinder, same cylinder. How many times do we have to say this. I am not a builder but when three engines screw up something in the same cylinder over and over again and the customer asks not to use the block and then you use it. That is screwed up. Also, since you knew that it was going to cost that much...because you said afterwards" it always ends up being about 8k" Why wouldn't you just have recommended me buying a complete engine and selling mine. I will tell you why? Because you wanted me to think it was only going to cost 3k.

Okay. Now I am done....but the stuff I got from Mike Lewis was not junk. It is now in a guys car who runs 6.42 all day long and wins all the time. He replaced one rod and two pistons from that set. His is still running.
 
#106 ·
Del, after you spun the rod on the cast crank and ripped the ring lands out of two of the pistons the other six ring lands were torn up and I guess I considered it junk at that point. Now seeing that your cast crank had heat cracks due to spinning the rod, I figured the 4340 was the crank to use in a 800 hp build. I do not know what Mike Lewis has to do with you destroying parts that you bought from him.


I am sorry you feel this way about me Del, I did try to build you a real nice motor.
 
#107 ·
" now I'm done BUT"..... So Mike is better than Mark on that basis. Dude, you really need to get your scheiss together man.

And I'd bet you thought I was a yankee freak when I told you to rename that damn car or it'll curse you. I guess I "saw" the fact that the curse was already on it.

Seems to me that you pushed Mark into something he had major reservations about and didnt want to do, and still did because of you and TC. That's the ONLY thing I'd fault him on. Not being a prick, like he should have been. Like I would have been. Only becuase I''ve btdt in another racket altogether.

He shouldn't be making "experimental" mills for amatuers on a budget using crap parts. I'm sure he knows that now.

Nevertheless, THIS self proclaimed amatuer is seriously considering a redo of my old Chevelle and a "mild mannered" rat from Mark is high on the list. For the precision work, customer care, and tested design. and this amatuer would run it the way the designer spec'd it.

Okay. Now I am done......and even though you likely won't take advice from a crazy yankee, I might advise you to STFU about this anymore. Or you may burn every bridge you had the priveledge of crossing here.
Done. End.
 
#117 ·
I guess I'm a "Crazy Yankee" too.


" now I'm done BUT"..... So Mike is better than Mark on that basis. Dude, you really need to get your scheiss together man.

And I'd bet you thought I was a yankee freak when I told you to rename that damn car or it'll curse you. I guess I "saw" the fact that the curse was already on it.


Okay. Now I am done......and even though you likely won't take advice from a crazy yankee, I might advise you to STFU about this anymore. Or you may burn every bridge you had the priveledge of crossing here.
Done. End.
____________________________________________________________
Nov 9th, 10, 7:07 PM
dreis454
Lifetime Premium Member
Dan
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Somers,CT
Posts: 8,760
Re: Progress Pics...."Black Death!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazydavey
Del it's your car, do what you want with it. The name though...."black death"? You're not going to paint your finger nails or anything are you???


It's BAD juju to name a car that you will be driving @ high speed with 'DEATH' in the name.
 
#108 ·
Was the BBC filled any, just curious. Also wondering if the ringlands are standard bbc.

Not blaming the fuel one bit, as E85 is all my car sips. But with that said, its working its way towards winter, and over here in okie land.. I have noticed my high comp 416LS getting fussy with it lately.Minute % in AFR changes.

But on the other end of the spectrum. To the builder, why build something your not comfortable building? Shipping a block is a far cry from 8K if that be the reasoning. The combo does seem a bit radical for Dels desires out of it. But.. I feel, if it really were detonation to kill this combo.. It would of happend within these last couple of months, what with him playing with timing quite a bit and really pounding on the ol car.

Disclaimer: Im not down talking anyone, just sharing my opinion.
 
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