What to build? 383ci. ~vs~ 406ci. - Page 2 - Chevelle Tech
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post #16 of 31 (permalink) Old Aug 9th, 07, 10:11 AM Thread Starter
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Re: What to build? 383ci. ~vs~ 406ci.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kirkwoodken View Post
Don't know how I missed your chamber size the first time around....

Ken,

You didn't miss the info. I went back & added it after you asked about it.


I'm a big believer in the smallest combustion chamber possible.

Has anyone here read about or experimented with SOMENDER-SINGH grooves?

Interesting concept. I'm trying to decide if I should try it out or not.

Here's a link to some interesting reading. http://somender-singh.com/
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post #17 of 31 (permalink) Old Aug 9th, 07, 11:57 AM
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Re: What to build? 383ci. ~vs~ 406ci.

Now we are getting somewhere. I believe the SOMENDER-SINGH grooves are simply a crutch for sloppy tolerances in engine building. Ideally, the piston should come within .001" from the head at all RPM. That promotes maximum turbulance. Putting grooves in the pistons simply makes it hard for the mixture in the grooves to burn. Running minimum quench requires research with any piston/rod/ring combo to get the pistons as close to the head as possible. That takes the kind of money that most people don't have.

The old Gurney/Westlake engines used an angled flycut on the tops of the pistons in an effort to increase turbulance. Two strokes use a squish band to achieve the same effect.

The lack of turbulance is what makes hemi's the combustion chamber of choice for fuel burners; You don't want to be compressing liquid fuel in a quench area.

The auto makers do have a problem with quench; they need to provide enough area for carbon build-up over time. It is also said to make engines noisier. Who cares about that? That is something most of us hobbiest need not concern ourselves with.

My present 406 is running the piston .005" out of the hole. I wanted .015", but I hated to take another .010" off the top of the block since we had to grind way too much off to use KB pistons.

If you haven't bought a crank yet, I would talk to Wolfplace about using a 3.810" stroke crank with the KB pistons to see if that could eliminate grinding a lot off the deck area. That's what I'm looking at for my next 406/415.

A lot of people don't like the KB pistons. I have one of the first sets they made for the 406, and I haven't had any trouble with them. I'm using them with .0025" clearance. Next time, I'll go .0015" and .010 quench. I'm not saying you should do that, but that's the way I'm leaning toward my next street engine.

Also, check out The Old One's website. http://www.theoldone.com/ Endon has done some interesting head studies, most of which make sense to me. I wish he lived next door. It's all about sucking the maximum amount of heat energy out of what we are burning. There is still room for improvment.

kirkwoodken
406 SB, Original Bill Thomas '63 Rochester FI
AFR 210, Lunati 501C2LUN, 255/263@.050", .628"
10:1, TH400, 3.31's, 4400 SS

"Life is too short to not run a solid roller cam."
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post #18 of 31 (permalink) Old Aug 9th, 07, 1:07 PM
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Re: What to build? 383ci. ~vs~ 406ci.

i have nothing to add, but are you by chance the JM from over at cowboy seven?

-Jay
69 chevelle-Cadillac 500 torque vs. a 10 bolt rear!
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post #19 of 31 (permalink) Old Aug 9th, 07, 5:46 PM
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Re: What to build? 383ci. ~vs~ 406ci.

kirkwooden, if the piston comes within .001 of the head at TDC, isn't your quench .001? I know that's ideal, but with piston rock, etc., it's not really possible. I've run as little as .025 measured quench on a steel rodded street engine without any problems but you really need a good machinist to get that spot-on as you well know.
Jim Moore (posts a lot on Team Chevelle and Bracket Talk) likes to run minimum quench - as I recall, he said he had one where the piston left "witness marks" on the heads - and he jokes that it keeps your rods from stretching

Gary Adrian
The correct spelling is
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post #20 of 31 (permalink) Old Aug 9th, 07, 9:31 PM
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Re: What to build? 383ci. ~vs~ 406ci.

Minimum quench makes power. Something to consider is the piston stops at the top of the bore. Although it looks like a violent stop, it really isn't. The piston is slowed quite gently at the top and bottom of the stroke. If it weren't, engines would self destruct almost instantly. So, when you run close quench, even if you tap the head slightly, nothing happens because of slow piston speed. I've also seen other peoples motors with witness marks from the pistons, and it hasn't hurt anything, but I've never done it on my own motors for fear that MY gaskets will compress to .035" instead of .039". I think that with hyper pistons and tight clearance, .010" is doable without problems. The main problem is most after market pistons have compression heights that are way to short and would require about a .060" cut off the deck surface. With a stock block, thats a lot of metal to remove.

kirkwoodken
406 SB, Original Bill Thomas '63 Rochester FI
AFR 210, Lunati 501C2LUN, 255/263@.050", .628"
10:1, TH400, 3.31's, 4400 SS

"Life is too short to not run a solid roller cam."
"Nothing is impossible; if you don't know what you're talking about."
Kirkwoodken
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post #21 of 31 (permalink) Old Aug 9th, 07, 9:40 PM Thread Starter
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Re: What to build? 383ci. ~vs~ 406ci.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 69chevelle355 View Post
i have nothing to add, but are you by chance the JM from over at cowboy seven?
Oops... Busted.

Hey, I've read your posts.

I'll bet these guys have given you a hard time about not using a BBC in your Chevelle.

Hey Kirkwoodken. I already have a crank. One of those Scat cast steel 6" rod, internal balance cranks. Standard stroke.

Those KB pistons you're talking about. Are they forged or hyper?
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post #22 of 31 (permalink) Old Aug 9th, 07, 10:05 PM
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Re: What to build? 383ci. ~vs~ 406ci.

JM: Yes, mine are hyper. I have a 7000 rpm NA "street" motor. Don't really need forged pistons. Hypers are quiet, hard as a goats head, KB's have generous valve reliefs, lots of information on their web site. A lot of people have had trouble with them, I haven't.

I don't think SCAT made that crank when I built my engine. I started on it in '88. I'm using a stocker. Some of them break, some of them don't. If I were rebuilding, I would go with SCAT stuff. Good enough for 600 HP. More than I'll ever make with my freaky FI.

I just got Harold's 501C2LUN (the old R10-R15 Ultradyne, Harold's favorite cam) installed today after it sat in the garage for a year. Can't wait till that is running again.

Some general advice: If you find working on things frustrating, NEVER install a Rev Kit on any engine you own. I've been putting this off for a year because the kits are such a pain. The good news is everything looks good, so the kit goes back in.

kirkwoodken
406 SB, Original Bill Thomas '63 Rochester FI
AFR 210, Lunati 501C2LUN, 255/263@.050", .628"
10:1, TH400, 3.31's, 4400 SS

"Life is too short to not run a solid roller cam."
"Nothing is impossible; if you don't know what you're talking about."
Kirkwoodken
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post #23 of 31 (permalink) Old Aug 10th, 07, 12:53 AM
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Re: What to build? 383ci. ~vs~ 406ci.

another vote for the 406.
the 2-bolt should be fine for the kind of RPM's it will turn.

ever think of a stroker crank for the 400???

New project:Red/Blk Stripes 70 SS-565" FAST+XFI, 819 HP/ 735 TQ on pump-gas. "Red Dead"!

Sold: My 71 SS 454 clone "Back from the Dead" http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i2...lemay05005.jpg
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post #24 of 31 (permalink) Old Aug 10th, 07, 3:57 AM
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Re: What to build? 383ci. ~vs~ 406ci.

hmmmmm, Cadillacs.

Tom Terrific or Terrible Tom, depending on the phase of the moon, passing cosmic rays or other factors not fully understood except by my wife.
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post #25 of 31 (permalink) Old Aug 10th, 07, 7:21 AM
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Re: What to build? 383ci. ~vs~ 406ci.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ~JM~ View Post
Has anyone here read about or experimented with SOMENDER-SINGH grooves?

Interesting concept. I'm trying to decide if I should try it out or not.

Here's a link to some interesting reading. http://somender-singh.com/

I have used the grooves on a few engines now, both SBC and Ford V8s. I have found they idle cleaner and smoother, require less timing and have no detonation issues despite being high in static comp. They also sound a bit sharper. I don't think they make any more HP but they definately tame a lumpy idle.

JMHO
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post #26 of 31 (permalink) Old Aug 10th, 07, 8:16 AM
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Re: What to build? 383ci. ~vs~ 406ci.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ~JM~ View Post
Oops... Busted.

Hey, I've read your posts.

I'll bet these guys have given you a hard time about not using a BBC in your Chevelle.
haven't been give a hard time about the swap yet....we will see when i get it running and post up with some track times.
small world on the internet........

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Mobley View Post
hmmmmm, Cadillacs.

-Jay
69 chevelle-Cadillac 500 torque vs. a 10 bolt rear!
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post #27 of 31 (permalink) Old Aug 10th, 07, 11:38 AM
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Talking Re: What to build? 383ci. ~vs~ 406ci.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Mobley View Post
hmmmmm, Cadillacs.
Sounds like another George Montgomery in the making.


Tucson racer Pat Neal is putting this Fred in his Camaro.

http://www.chevelles.com/forums/atta...1&d=1186759848

kirkwoodken
406 SB, Original Bill Thomas '63 Rochester FI
AFR 210, Lunati 501C2LUN, 255/263@.050", .628"
10:1, TH400, 3.31's, 4400 SS

"Life is too short to not run a solid roller cam."
"Nothing is impossible; if you don't know what you're talking about."
Kirkwoodken

Last edited by kirkwoodken; May 26th, 09 at 9:03 PM.
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post #28 of 31 (permalink) Old Aug 10th, 07, 12:35 PM
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Re: What to build? 383ci. ~vs~ 406ci.

Go 406 and don't look back. Vizzard has hyped them up a lot and made some claims about some of them being able to go .080 over; but don't chance that move. I think that story might be like the 327's that can go .125 over. I have heared a lot of storys, even heard of people owning them; but can't give anyone to give me a casting number or show me one.

On a 400, the two bolt it what you want. The factory 4 bolt G.M. blocks be it 350 or 400 do not have a lot of material available for the outer bolts to mate to. On a 400 it is even worse due to the fact that the main bore is larger and the outer bolts are moved into a zone that is thin.

If you put a good set of splayed caps on, plug the deck, and build a cup style steam manifold, that factory block can take a lot. Ad some block hard and it is even better. As said above Machine shop is key.

As for the KB hyper pistons. I do not personaly use them if I am the one paying for the engine. They may work great for some applications; but I would not be building a 406 to drive to work. To me using a Hyper piston to save a few coins or avoid some piston sound on start-up is like saving money by not investing in a reserve chute or wanting to wear one cause it is not convienient all bunched up on your belly. You may never need it; but if you do, it is there. Once you see what can and does happen in either case, the decision becomes easy.
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post #29 of 31 (permalink) Old Aug 10th, 07, 1:38 PM
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Re: What to build? 383ci. ~vs~ 406ci.

It's hardly a good comparison, but I've been pretty darn happy with the boat anchor sb400 (mine had to go .040 to be saved) I built for my '69 pickup. It has the small truck heads and a torque cam and it's run like a champ for 20k miles without any major problems. I went somewhat budget with Chevy 5.7 rods and cast pistons and a stock Chevy crank turned .010 under. I recently had the pan off to fix a major oil leak and it looked great inside. This thing would pull stumps and would be downright dangerous in a lighter vehicle.

If I didn't want to maintain reliability above all and didn't demand that it be able to pull 6000+ pounds when taking the Chevelle to distant shows, I'd probably replace the small truck heads with some nice aluminum heads and a real cam and it would be downright fun.

Go the 406 route and just make sure you get the right head gaskets and that you drill your 64cc heads for the required 400 steam holes. 64cc heads have a tendancy to crack between the exhaust and the spark plug or between the exhaust and the intake, so make sure to have them magnafluxed before you just throw them on, especially if they are 2.02/1.60 valve heads.
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post #30 of 31 (permalink) Old Aug 10th, 07, 3:16 PM
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Re: What to build? 383ci. ~vs~ 406ci.

406 was the right choice for me. mine is a two bolt, scat crank, AFR 195's, solid flat tappet, rpm air gap. it's been a great motor and i've never had problems with it since rebuild 20,000 miles ago, though i only ever spin it to 6000.
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