Setting glass - Butyl or Urethane? ... AAARG!!! - Page 5 - Chevelle Tech
Body Shop Paint & Body Forum

 1Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
post #61 of 137 (permalink) Old May 31st, 12, 4:31 PM
Senior Tech Team
Scott
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: ct
Posts: 4,055
Re: Butyl or urethane... AAARG!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
Now that makes no sense what so ever!

Brian
To you and I perhaps. Their "reason" is to fill any pits or irregularities and allow easier sealing of the glass when dropping it on. Not out of the ordinary to hear that and other types of odd repairs.
Raven1 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #62 of 137 (permalink) Old May 31st, 12, 4:38 PM
Senior Tech Team
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: San Francisco Bay Area Ca. USA
Posts: 3,109
Re: Butyl or urethane... AAARG!!!

Here are the ICAR* guidelines for glass replacement.
http://www.glasslinks.com/pdf/icar_sg01.pdf

At number 3.2 I particularly like where it basically says I am paraphasing here, "Good luck with trying to determan what to do with all the conflicting information out there from the vehicle and adhesive manufacturers". seriously paraphrased.

Brian

*Founded in 1979, I-CAR (Inter-Industry Conference on Auto Collision Repair) is an international, not-for-profit training organization dedicated to improving the quality, safety, and efficiency of auto collision repair for the ultimate benefit of the consumer. The Uniform Procedures For Collision Repair outlines Industry-accepted, uniform repair procedures for technicians, insurers, suppliers, vehicle makers, educators and others. They enable the Collision Repair Industry to produce uniform, quality repairs for the consumer.

Brian Martin
1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1959 Rambler American. Yeah, I said RAMBLER, you want to make something of it punk?
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"
MARTINSR is offline  
post #63 of 137 (permalink) Old Jun 1st, 12, 10:34 PM
Senior Tech Team
Mike
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Brunswick, Ohio
Posts: 2,631
Re: Butyl or urethane... AAARG!!!

Looked to me when I was watching Foose build a 69 orange camaro, they used butyl on the glass. They used the primer also, which I had a little trouble finding. Been using butyl for years without a problem, easy to set the glass at the right height so the mouldings fit also. Good job for the do it yourselfer with those pesky leaks.
69ssmike is offline  
 
post #64 of 137 (permalink) Old Jun 2nd, 12, 6:37 AM
Senior Tech Team
Scott
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: ct
Posts: 4,055
Re: Butyl or urethane... AAARG!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 69ssmike View Post
Looked to me when I was watching Foose build a 69 orange camaro, they used butyl on the glass. They used the primer also, which I had a little trouble finding. Been using butyl for years without a problem, easy to set the glass at the right height so the mouldings fit also. Good job for the do it yourselfer with those pesky leaks.
Did you read in this thread there is a dam available so the do it your selfer can use urethane? Easy to set the glass at the right height too.

If he did use butyl, it will only solidify the misconception that butyl was used originally, and can be used under all circumstances. A person in his position should provide all product information and industry standards for the viewer. Whether it's butyl or urethane.

Due to years of conditioning, most people do not question authority. It's a psychological fact. And Foose is in an authoritative position.
Raven1 is offline  
post #65 of 137 (permalink) Old Jun 2nd, 12, 10:11 PM
Lifetime Premium Member
Steve
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Sandusky, OH
Posts: 1,701
Re: Butyl or urethane... AAARG!!!

And; "I saw it on TV,it must be true...."

Read here for a glass industrry slant...http://www.agrss.com/

Steve O.
Motorvation is offline  
post #66 of 137 (permalink) Old Jun 3rd, 12, 5:02 PM
Senior Tech Team
Mike
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Brunswick, Ohio
Posts: 2,631
Re: Butyl or urethane... AAARG!!!

I'm guessing most failures come from improper prep of the channel, not from product failure. Could 3M put out this product all these years and it not be safe? I've been doing this fo over 30 years and I'm not saying because I saw it on TV it's the right way to go,just saying what has worked for me. Flame away, I can take it!!!
69ssmike is offline  
post #67 of 137 (permalink) Old Jun 3rd, 12, 8:25 PM
Senior Tech Team
Scott
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: ct
Posts: 4,055
Re: Butyl or urethane... AAARG!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 69ssmike View Post
I'm guessing most failures come from improper prep of the channel, not from product failure. Could 3M put out this product all these years and it not be safe? I've been doing this fo over 30 years and I'm not saying because I saw it on TV it's the right way to go,just saying what has worked for me. Flame away, I can take it!!!
What products are sold for installation by the car's owner and what ones are legal for shops to use are not the same thing. FMVSS standards need to be met. Open a shop and tell your insurance company you are using butyl exclusively, or suggest to the car manufacturers they ignore FMVSS. Butyl also has more applications than just windshields.
Raven1 is offline  
post #68 of 137 (permalink) Old Jun 4th, 12, 11:04 AM
Tech Team
tom
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: DFW Texas
Posts: 94
Re: Butyl or urethane... AAARG!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven1 View Post
I asked if you read any of the information submitted. How is that a stupid question? Your aggressive statement is interesting.
Just asking "if you read any of the information submitted" certainly implies I haven't. The real question is why would you even make such a statement. To answer your question, I have, and my response was not agressive just factual.

The butyl tape worked well for me, maybe not so much for others.

Tom6870

Tom6870
tom6870 is offline  
post #69 of 137 (permalink) Old Jun 4th, 12, 7:07 PM
Senior Tech Team
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: San Francisco Bay Area Ca. USA
Posts: 3,109
Re: Butyl or urethane... AAARG!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven1 View Post
What products are sold for installation by the car's owner and what ones are legal for shops to use are not the same thing. FMVSS standards need to be met. Open a shop and tell your insurance company you are using butyl exclusively, or suggest to the car manufacturers they ignore FMVSS. Butyl also has more applications than just windshields.
Don't throw out that "legal" urban myth kinda word. If you can find any LAW stating what those windows have to be installed with be it at a shop or home drive way I would like to see it because I don't believe there is any such law. Shops use it because it is the accepted way to do it. And if a shop were to not do it and something happened related to how they installed the glass they would go down in flames in court. If they did exactly what is described as the industry standard they are STILL likely to lose in court just because of poor work, but by following the industry guidelines they would have a much better chance.

It's like following the manufacturer guidelines for hanging a quarter panel or replacing a frame member. If the body shop follows exactly what the manufacturer says in their guidelines for replacement of that part they have that on their side should they end up in court over a failure in the next collision for instance. There is NO law, ZERO, ZERO, ZERO that says how the shop has to weld in the frame member! At least here in California. I have personally been involved with a case where the BAR (http://www.smogcheck.ca.gov/) investigated a repair that was done to a friend of mines van and was brought to this shop where I work now for the investigation. The ONLY thing as far as "Law" is concerned is "fraud". Nothing else, not ONE SINGLE THING can be done about poor craftsmenship. It is regarded as "subjective" and I don't care how bad it is, there is NOTHING they will do, that is a civil matter. You as a consumer can sue the shop (anyone can sue any person for anything) but the BAR the state of California that looks over the repairs to automobiles will do NOTHING for anything regarding craftsmanship. This shop that did the work on my friends van replaced the quarter panel and did VERY poor repairs on the body structure like where they pulled the floor with a frame rack ripping the floor welds from the frame (unibody Chevy full size van) leaving it unwelded. NOTHING could be done about this, it is after all "subjective". What they popped them for was charging for some vertical braces on the quarter panel that were "repaired" and not replaced as the work order said. Fraud, charging for services not performed or components not replaced, THAT is what closed that shop, NOT the shoddy repairs.

If you can come up with a "Law" regarding how these windows are set I would love to see it.

Brian

Brian Martin
1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1959 Rambler American. Yeah, I said RAMBLER, you want to make something of it punk?
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"
MARTINSR is offline  
post #70 of 137 (permalink) Old Jun 4th, 12, 8:32 PM
Senior Tech Team
Scott
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: ct
Posts: 4,055
Re: Butyl or urethane... AAARG!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
If you can come up with a "Law" regarding how these windows are set I would love to see it.

Brian
How come the glass shop who does my windshield can't use butyl (that they stated was because their insurance won't allow them, which is not a law), and why did butyl not meet safety standards as stated in the link I posted by John Hinckley? If John is wrong it's possible. So were safety standards not true? I thought that would be considered a law. You seem to possess more knowledge of installation standards past and present than I. Perhaps if you bring this topic up at CRG the info on standards regarding butyl on windshields could be resolved.

Last edited by Raven1; Jun 4th, 12 at 9:00 PM. Reason: more
Raven1 is offline  
post #71 of 137 (permalink) Old Jun 4th, 12, 8:44 PM
Senior Tech Team
Scott
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: ct
Posts: 4,055
Re: Butyl or urethane... AAARG!!!

Is John's info in these threads wrong?

http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=5347.0

http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=5347.0
Raven1 is offline  
post #72 of 137 (permalink) Old Jun 4th, 12, 9:06 PM
Senior Tech Team
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: San Francisco Bay Area Ca. USA
Posts: 3,109
Re: Butyl or urethane... AAARG!!!

You see statements like this.


"Safety glass used in windshields must meet certain specifications regarding properties such as chemical durability, impact resistance, and strength. Standards have been developed by the American Society for Testing of Materials (ASTM) for measuring these properties. Specifications have also been developed for windshield performance by SAE International, an organization of automotive engineers."

No where do you see the word "law" you see "guidelines". I work with these every day, ICAR, ASE and manufacturers guidelines I get from "Aldata" https://collision.alldata.com/alldat...491560F584A511

These are guidelines, not laws.

Brian

Brian Martin
1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1959 Rambler American. Yeah, I said RAMBLER, you want to make something of it punk?
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"
MARTINSR is offline  
post #73 of 137 (permalink) Old Jun 4th, 12, 9:56 PM
Senior Tech Team
Scott
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: ct
Posts: 4,055
Re: Butyl or urethane... AAARG!!!

I misused the word law. Good to know. Makes it sound like adherance to guidelines by car manufacturers and shops are optional. Are they? Who enforces that they are practiced in the factory, and what happens if they decide not to practice them and manufacture cars any way they choose?
Raven1 is offline  
post #74 of 137 (permalink) Old Jun 4th, 12, 10:08 PM
Senior Tech Team
Scott
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: ct
Posts: 4,055
Re: Butyl or urethane... AAARG!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tom6870 View Post
Just asking "if you read any of the information submitted" certainly implies I haven't. The real question is why would you even make such a statement. To answer your question, I have, and my response was not agressive just factual.

The butyl tape worked well for me, maybe not so much for others.

Tom6870
Your use of the word "stupid" regarding my statement suggests an aggressive behavior. You misquoted me also. I asked "did" and not "if". People often ask if a person read certain info. Hard telling outside of direct communication if they did or not. What a person infers from a question is in their control, nobody else's.

Butyl working or not is not the issue here. It's known it will work.
Raven1 is offline  
post #75 of 137 (permalink) Old Jun 4th, 12, 10:32 PM
Senior Tech Team
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: San Francisco Bay Area Ca. USA
Posts: 3,109
Re: Butyl or urethane... AAARG!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven1 View Post
I misused the word law. Good to know. Makes it sound like adherance to guidelines by car manufacturers and shops are optional. Are they? Who enforces that they are practiced in the factory, and what happens if they decide not to practice them and manufacture cars any way they choose?
No one, not a single soul, or group or government agency "enforces" these guidelines, that is my point. It IS "optional" to follow them or not. The manufacturer is the most "concerned" for a lack of a better term because they don't want their cars out there repaired incorrectly where something could happen and their car is what would be splashed all over the news, not the repair shop who caused the problem.
There are all kinds of odd things like no manufacturer can "force" the consumer to use their parts for any reason, did you know that? They can't force the consumer to use their parts to uphold the warrantee. There have been many court fights over this one. There are some gray areas that I frankly can't sort out they get so complex but it is my understanding you could put some cheap aftermarket radiator in your 2012 Chevy during a collision repair and the GM has to honor any and all warrantees they have on the vehicle outside of the actual failure of the radiator. You could fill your 2012 Camaro with aftermarket parts and they can say NOTHING.

I print out these manufacturers guidelines nearly every single day to give to the techs in the shop. Every single welded on part, or suspension or brake part that gets changed, the tech gets the manufacturers guidelines and it is documented that they got it. I would say largely to C in the examples below. There are MANY times there is no guideline at all, in those cases we fall back on the "group" guidelines by groups like ICAR. I have to tell you, there is a LOT of conflicting opinions in these guidelines, a LOT. There are many cars that have simply none, not a damn thing other than a super general "Cut out a weld and put a new one when you weld in the new part" sort of guideline. Others like Mercedes have mind boggling guideline complete with things like panel gap gauges for proper panel fit.
There are just CRAZY out of this world ones like Toyota and some Chevy full frames that have a very strict repair guide line that basically says you can to zero repairs and to replace the frame for a little bend.

As a body shop or glass shop who wants to:

A. Wants to do the best job possible for their customer because damn it, it's the right thing to do.

B. Wants to do exactly what the manufacturer says because it will cover them if they end up in an investigation by the BAR (here in Ca.) or in court in a civil suit over some repairs they did that have failed in some way.

C. A combination of A and B.

But it is a choice, make no mistakes about it, it is a choice as there is no government agency who gives a crap about it. And that is the fact, if I am wrong I will be very gracious in my eating crow.

Brian

Brian Martin
1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1959 Rambler American. Yeah, I said RAMBLER, you want to make something of it punk?
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"
MARTINSR is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Chevelle Tech forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address. Note, you will be sent a confirmation request to this address.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome