Setting glass - Butyl or Urethane? ... AAARG!!! - Page 3 - Chevelle Tech
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post #31 of 137 (permalink) Old May 30th, 12, 9:47 AM
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Re: Butyl or urethane... AAARG!!!

MARTINSR laughed a liitle about the 59 Rambler using urethane since its a gasket type car like my Studebakers

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post #32 of 137 (permalink) Old May 30th, 12, 9:51 AM
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Re: Butyl or urethane... AAARG!!!

Kevin, If something I said left the impression that the urethane goes over bare metal I am sorry. I did say in the first post that the urethane is to go over epoxy primer that is applied to bare metal. The urethane is to be applied to epoxy primer over bare metal, just as you have it. As far as "leaky A body glass" I have to tell you, anywhere near correct bedding of the glass on a restoration like you are describing there is not going to be a leak, not now or twenty years from now. The rust that is so prevalent in these window channels is what causes the leaks in my experience. And that rust is caused by the primer and paint being poorly applied at the factory, in my opinion. I have been working on these cars since they were new (well late seventies cars with the same window design) and I have seen MANY of them over the years. The rust always seemed to start right at the moulding clip stud. I am convinced that the head of the stud shielded the base of the stud from being painted properly to protect it. That and the metal clips scratching the paint when it was pushed on. THAT is the cause of the windows leaking in my opinion. If it's epoxy primed anywhere near proper with it sealed anywhere near proper it isn't going to leak....ever.

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post #33 of 137 (permalink) Old May 30th, 12, 9:55 AM
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Re: Butyl or urethane... AAARG!!!

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Originally Posted by Mark66SS View Post
MARTINSR laughed a liitle about the 59 Rambler using urethane since its a gasket type car like my Studebakers

Exactly, and it is even a unibody! The glass is "floating" and not even as attached to the body as much as butyl tape would be. I removed both the front and the back glass from my parts car by myself without so much as a tool on the rear. Just pushed on the inside peeling back the rubber. Now on the windshield being safety plate and I wanted to be SURE I didn't break it, I did cut the rubber with a razor so I could carefully remove the glass.

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post #34 of 137 (permalink) Old May 30th, 12, 11:34 AM
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Re: Butyl or urethane... AAARG!!!

Brian,
Thank heavens for that clarification. I only read your post #27, referring to #26, and both of those posts seemed to me to indicate that one should "install over bare metal". To me, "bare metal" means bare metal, not "primer covered metal". Forgive my missing your original post. I see it now. My bad on jumping to the conclusion of "bare metal".

re: Working on them a long time. Yes, me too. Since 1976, when I bought my first 67 Chevelle SS as a hulk - for $75. (wow, those were the days) I remember that car clearly. It was "only" 11 years old at the time I bought it...and having spent all of it's 11 years in the sunny South, it already had a leaky and rotted out rear glass.

I think you are right about the window trim clips and chips being the origin of the problem. I think I have enough experience and engineering savvy to agree with you that there was clearly a design and/or installation process weakness in the A and B body windows from the era. I've had seven of them, and all seven have had the same basic problem, in varying degrees. Meanwhile, my three 1964 Cadillac with rubber seal windows had zero leaks and zero window channel corrosion, even after forty years with the original seals in them. Of course, rubber seal windows are a PIA to deal with, but they just don't seem to have the same corrosion issues as A body cars. But everywhere there are stud and clip trim, there is corrosion. Just not a good design, IMO.

Anyway, I really appreciate the clarification on the urethane on epoxy primer. I was NOT looking forward to removing already finished and careful work designed to overcome the corrosion problems in the window channels! Thanks again.

Now, if Scott will just weigh in, I can REALLY rest easy...

:-)

Keith
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post #35 of 137 (permalink) Old May 30th, 12, 12:05 PM
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Re: Butyl or urethane... AAARG!!!

Good clairification - I too assumed that the window adhesive was to go over bare metal. I'm glad that got sorted out.

My windows channels are painted. The epoxy is down underneath the layers. What's my options?

Take it down to bare metal and re-epoxy the window channels?

or

take off the paint layer?

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post #36 of 137 (permalink) Old May 30th, 12, 1:22 PM
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Re: Butyl or urethane... AAARG!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bocomo1969 View Post
Good clairification - I too assumed that the window adhesive was to go over bare metal. I'm glad that got sorted out.

My windows channels are painted. The epoxy is down underneath the layers. What's my options?

Take it down to bare metal and re-epoxy the window channels?

or

take off the paint layer?

The paint is a flat black - Hot Rod Flatz.
It's a choice for you to make. How bad can it be? Well, it could be as good as just the epoxy primer over bare metal or it could be horrible with the paint coming off the primer very easily, it's a gamble. Just as it is using butyl or urethane. It is a choice for you to make. I personally don't think the butyl is a big deal though so who am I?

Brian

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post #37 of 137 (permalink) Old May 30th, 12, 1:26 PM
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Re: Butyl or urethane... AAARG!!!

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Originally Posted by CoolBlueGlow View Post
Brian,



I think you are right about the window trim clips and chips being the origin of the problem. I think I have enough experience and engineering savvy to agree with you that there was clearly a design and/or installation process weakness in the A and B body windows from the era.
Keith
I lean on that as the root of the problem because I have seen it so much even where there is no window! Remember they used those studs and clips on other mouldings as well. I have seen perfectly good California cars with circles of rust around those studs on the side mouldings! There certainly wasn't a water problem where it sets like in the window channels, we are talking on the side of the body with almost nothing that could trap the water. Seen the same thing on vinyl roof mouldings, rust around every stud. I think the stud was like a little "umbrella" over the body and it shielded it from the paint and primer.

Brian

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post #38 of 137 (permalink) Old May 30th, 12, 5:33 PM
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Re: Butyl or urethane... AAARG!!!

If you want to follow the requirements for industry replacement standards follow Martin's instructions. He's certified. It's your choice. Years ago I did not know what was correct either. I used butyl in the 80's. I've even used urethane over topcoats but they never failed. Guys still use butyl, even some shops do. Glass companies can't because it's illegal and their liablity insurance won't cover it. I'd bet there's a lot of glass shops who install over freshly painted channels too. For what I pay for a shop for glass including installation and a guarantee I can't be bothered doing it myself.
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post #39 of 137 (permalink) Old May 30th, 12, 7:16 PM
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Re: Butyl or urethane... AAARG!!!

Very good information, presented well and it still seems to be staying "civil", BUT, I have questions....

I strongly feel the factory stuff was neither Butyl tape NOR ureathane. I think the problem is, now there is no happy medium.

I redid my rear window with butyl tape back in the late 90s. Not sure if the glass had been out before, but it was definitely no ureathane. I'm glad it wasn't. With butyl or Thickol, you can "cut" it out (leaves a helluva gooey sticky mess, but you can salvage the glass). Ureathane dries HARD. TOUGH. It's in, and it's in. Yes, that's why they use it on modern cars for structural and safety requirements. At work, sometimes we've had some of our fleet needing glass replacement. That's fine and dandy if you're replacing the glass anyway and you need to "forceably" remove the glass,.,,but tell me this...if I have a numbers matching car and have the original back glass (which I do) and I have a professional shop UREATHANE it in, what recourse do I have if I ever need to pull that glass out again??? In one piece???

Are there chemicals to desolve ureathane that won't eat the car, the interior and everything else around? You sure as hell can't cut ureathane with a piano wire...

Not arguing, I just need some clarification. Seems to me modern cars are all or nothing, there's no saving the glass if it needs to come out. On a classic, you want to save the original glass and hoping it "never has to come out" isn't very realistic.

Is there an example out there where someone SUCCESSFULLY removed an original windshield or kept the replacement windshield IN ONE PIECE after it had been ureathaned in?

Sorry for the spelling mistakes, I'm tired. Again, I'm not arguing, I just have never had these questions answered.

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post #40 of 137 (permalink) Old May 30th, 12, 7:19 PM
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Cool Re: Butyl or urethane... AAARG!!!

Stickied.

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post #41 of 137 (permalink) Old May 30th, 12, 10:43 PM
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Re: Butyl or urethane... AAARG!!!

Auto glass removal tools from companies from Equilizer and Fein and some experience will get your glass out. You can wire urethane, it just takes more effort....

Steve O.
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post #42 of 137 (permalink) Old May 31st, 12, 8:26 AM
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Re: Butyl or urethane... AAARG!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven1 View Post
It's not butyl originally. Did you read any of the information in this thread?

The factory used pumpable thiokol with a dam.

That's why it looks neat and smooth.
Maybe you should go back and read the first OP before you ask stupid questions.

For everyone else, the butyl tape I used was 3M and it completely sealed the rear window of my '70 coupe. I haven't used any other sealer although others have and it's probably a good idea. The front window is original and isn't leaking so I left it alone. If you use the butyl tape be sure you get the right height, 5/16 thickness, makes a big difference how your trim sits in the pinch weld.

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post #43 of 137 (permalink) Old May 31st, 12, 8:50 AM
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Re: Butyl or urethane... AAARG!!!

So, to summarize a number of the useful observations and conclusions contained in this thread, in no particular order of appearance or value;

1. When restoring window channels, Urethane can go over epoxy primer, does not require bare metal and does not play well with topcoats
2. Because of #1, overspray, topcoats, primer, etc. are to be avoided in the window channel, as they can contribute to leaks caused by poor bonding
3. rust issues in the A & B body GM products of the era may originate more from trim clips than leaky windows.
4. warranty and legal reasons prohibit professional installers from using butyl tape - but it may work fine on vintage A and B bodies. Use at your own risk.
5. GM used a sealant made by the Thiokol corporation (still around btw) Scott is still as grumpy as ever, but a useful source of information :-)
6. Several restorers have managed to use butyl tape successfully in their restorations - and can document long term success...but GM did not use tape.
7. The materials required to do a neat urethane job are available.
8. To do a urethane job, one cannot simply buy a tube of window sealant - other tools and materials are required - otherwise, the job will look inferior. These include setting blocks, sealant dams, the correct channel primer, and of course the correct sealant.
9. structural issues related to butyl taped glass are minor on A body cars, since they are frame under body designs, as opposed to uni-body designs.
10. 59 Ramblers had rubber seal set windows, not glue ins.
11. People tend to be more rude to each other in writing than in person

There... is that about it? Did I miss anything?



Cheers,

Keith
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post #44 of 137 (permalink) Old May 31st, 12, 9:11 AM
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Re: Butyl or urethane... AAARG!!!

Oh, by the way: GM gives VERY EXTENSIVE and DETAILED instructions for this whole issue of reinstalling glass in 60'S GM products. I find it in the 1966 Fisher Body Manual, section 1-3 through 1-6.

That four page section includes part numbers for the original sealant, special instructions for modifying a hand caulking gun, the correct size of ".020 music wire" (their term) to cut out the glass, how to properly cut the tip of the sealant tube, and a bunch of other VERY detailed information which is too voluminous to repeat here.

Look it up. It'll help you a lot - and I promise you that a careful read of it will provide some big surprises about things GM says to do and NOT to do when reinstalling a sealant type glass.

Just to tease you, here's one interesting tidbit which would probably ignite a firestorm of responses about what an idiot I am from people who don't get that this is Fisher Body, not CoolBlueGlow :-) I quote Fisher Body Manual Section 1-4 item #4 (in part) - "...make sure wire is held close to glass to prevent cutting an excessive amount of adhesive caulking material from the glass opening". Yep - that's right. They want you to be careful to LEAVE most of the old caulking on the pinch weld, and rebond the new material to the old!

continuing on 1-5, item #2 (in part) "...briskly rub a generous amount of adhesive caulking primer over original adhesive caulking material that remains on pinchweld flange." Yep - glue the new to the old, priming the old so that the new will stick to it.



No flames please - I didn't write the mail, I just delivered it.


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post #45 of 137 (permalink) Old May 31st, 12, 10:18 AM
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Re: Butyl or urethane... AAARG!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tom6870 View Post
Maybe you should go back and read the first OP before you ask stupid questions.

For everyone else, the butyl tape I used was 3M and it completely sealed the rear window of my '70 coupe. I haven't used any other sealer although others have and it's probably a good idea. The front window is original and isn't leaking so I left it alone. If you use the butyl tape be sure you get the right height, 5/16 thickness, makes a big difference how your trim sits in the pinch weld.

tom6870
I asked if you read any of the information submitted. How is that a stupid question? Your aggressive statement is interesting.
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