How to: Dent repair using the hammer off dolly method - Page 4 - Chevelle Tech
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post #46 of 60 (permalink) Old Apr 20th, 11, 8:21 PM Thread Starter
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Eric
 
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Re: How to: Dent repair using the hammer off dolly method

Quote:
Originally Posted by darrell69 View Post
OUTSTANDING THANKS I have a book by Frank Sargent called The key to metal bumping that I have been trying to understand but with not much luck. Now I understand a lot more. I want to learn metal work not hammer and bondo work. I am going to try to figure out how to print your info. PS are you left handed?

Hey, no problem glad it helped someone.

I am not left handed but I've taught myself to use both hands when using a hammer and dolly because sometimes you need that ability.

What edition of that book do you have? Am guessing its the red covered book and the third edition. Are the pages printed in real cheap paper almost newspaper quality cheap paper?

The third edition was published in 1953 and a forth edition in 2006, both books are the SAME, but the fourth edition is printed on high quality picture paper. Doesn't sound like a big deal but it makes seeing the pictures so much easier and allows you to see what Frank is actually talking about.
I bought the 4th edition book off ebay from seller TCPglobal back in January. The 4th edition is so much nicer of a book, maybe it help you out understanding.
But pretty much my style is a direct copy of Frank Sargent because that book is what inspired me to develop the skills necessary for metal finishing.

But in my opinion the ultimate dent repair book is written by Robert Sargent, Frank's brother, called Automoblie Sheetmetal Repair. There are four editions of this book and the easiest one to find is the yellow covered 2nd edition from 1969. I see them on Ebay from time to time and Amazon. Robert and Frank would team up to write collision repair books for the U.S Army and the Chilton manuals up til about 1983.
The yellow book on the left.



I also have the 2nd edition of the "Key to metal bumping" which was published in 1948 and extremely rare. IMO this edition is far more superior to the later 3rd edition book.

Hopefully I posted the pages in the right order, maybe it helps explain Frank's methodology. Once you understand what he is saying you can really see how that damage was formed and the order it needs to be removed in. Just remember first in last out. Meaning the damage which occurred first is the last to be removed.


















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1970 chevelle getting Sliced and Diced Anything But STOCK
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post #47 of 60 (permalink) Old Apr 20th, 11, 8:28 PM Thread Starter
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Re: How to: Dent repair using the hammer off dolly method



There's a few links to my tool collection
What's hiding in the tool box part two

What's hiding in the tool box

And some crappy youtube videos I did.
http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...tchevelle&aq=f

Currently working on How to videos and replacement sheetmetal panels

1970 chevelle getting Sliced and Diced Anything But STOCK
1970 chevelle SS455 not a typo its a BUICK BABY
1949 and 1972 chevy trucks
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post #48 of 60 (permalink) Old Apr 21st, 11, 11:05 AM
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Re: How to: Dent repair using the hammer off dolly method

Just watched 2 of your videos, not what I expected to see. Was expecting to see 50 something gray haired fat bellied guy, not someone your age listening to Ozzy. Made me laugh. Yes it is the red 3rd edition. I am left handed and have a hard time understanding things sometimes, but your posts were not a problem. In the video what kind of disc are you using to shrink the metal? Thanks

Last edited by darrell69; Apr 21st, 11 at 3:35 PM.
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post #49 of 60 (permalink) Old Apr 21st, 11, 5:40 PM Thread Starter
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Re: How to: Dent repair using the hammer off dolly method

The disc is called a shrinking disc, nothing but a piece of 18ga stainless steel. It makes contact with the high spots in the metal, which are the only spots that need shrinking. Friction builds up on the high spots and soon develops heat which shrinks the metal. The shrinking disc is a very easy method of shrinking, unlike torch shrinking. But you MUST have atleast a 6000 rpm grinder to spin the disc, anything less and you wont generate enough friction and heat.

I bought mine from John Kelly for about 35 bucks, but I think he doesn't sell them anymore. http://www.ghiaspecialties.com/
Wray Schelin at wesparts@charter.net is the guy who invented the smooth shrinking disc and sells them for about 40 bucks and the ONLY person I would buy one from.

Picture of my shrinking discs. The one mounted to the grinder is flat, the other one has a slight curve which allows you to work curved metal.


Curved disc.


Currently working on How to videos and replacement sheetmetal panels

1970 chevelle getting Sliced and Diced Anything But STOCK
1970 chevelle SS455 not a typo its a BUICK BABY
1949 and 1972 chevy trucks
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post #50 of 60 (permalink) Old Apr 21st, 11, 6:03 PM Thread Starter
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Eric
 
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Re: How to: Dent repair using the hammer off dolly method

There is a picture of the highs and lows right before using the shrinking disc.



The same spot after using the shrinking disc, the black low spots have gotten smaller. Sometimes when I have a fender which such extensive damage as this which requires alot of hammering I'll use the shrinking disc from time to help control the amount of stretch going into the panel. Even though the panel has a long ways to being straight and requires much more hammering just using the disc from time to time keeps the panel in check so it won't get out of hand.




You still need to get the metal straight with the hammer and dolly the disc is just a finishing tool to smooth out the imperfections. It's no magic wand.

Currently working on How to videos and replacement sheetmetal panels

1970 chevelle getting Sliced and Diced Anything But STOCK
1970 chevelle SS455 not a typo its a BUICK BABY
1949 and 1972 chevy trucks
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post #51 of 60 (permalink) Old May 31st, 11, 11:09 AM
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Re: How to: Dent repair using the hammer off dolly method

Great reference Eric! Can't believe I missed this post until now.

Tony N.
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post #52 of 60 (permalink) Old Dec 31st, 11, 10:38 PM
 
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Re: How to: Dent repair using the hammer off dolly method

Really good stuff. thanks
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post #53 of 60 (permalink) Old Jan 2nd, 12, 9:39 PM
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Re: How to: Dent repair using the hammer off dolly method

I'm redoing the fenders I refinished in 2005.

I've been able to get them a lot more smooth. They will still need some filler in areas I cannot reach with the tools, but in the open areas it will be pretty good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpete, Dean, Derek69SS, hoffbug, rubadub, Grandsport, Thomas Jefferson, 1badss396, MEJ1990TM, and mrdjc99
As usual, Andy is right
If it doesn't fit, force it. If it breaks, it needed to be replaced anyway.

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post #54 of 60 (permalink) Old Jan 3rd, 12, 9:47 PM Thread Starter
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Eric
 
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Re: How to: Dent repair using the hammer off dolly method

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy69 View Post
I'm redoing the fenders I refinished in 2005.

I've been able to get them a lot more smooth. They will still need some filler in areas I cannot reach with the tools, but in the open areas it will be pretty good.

Why not post up some pictures and share your progress?

Could you reach the areas needing more work with something along the lines like these guys? Get an old leaf spring and heat it up and bend til you achieve a shape that fits your purpose...Eric






Currently working on How to videos and replacement sheetmetal panels

1970 chevelle getting Sliced and Diced Anything But STOCK
1970 chevelle SS455 not a typo its a BUICK BABY
1949 and 1972 chevy trucks
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post #55 of 60 (permalink) Old Apr 27th, 12, 7:55 PM
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Re: How to: Dent repair using the hammer off dolly method

Good stuff man!!!
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post #56 of 60 (permalink) Old Sep 1st, 12, 6:20 PM
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Re: How to: Dent repair using the hammer off dolly method

Great stuff here! I own two body shops in central Va. with 30 employees. I'm 51 and learned metal work from my father, I've been in this business my whole life. I've always used a slapping file for dent repair, nearly all our body techs over the years pic a dent out. Filler is always used as time is money in our business and metal is very thin nowadays. I've only seen one other tech who even had a slapping file in my entire life, kinda sad actually.

I think this thread would be a great read for new techs to understand the displacement of metal on impact. Just wanted to say thanks for putting it together, it was a great read.

Nick..
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post #57 of 60 (permalink) Old Feb 12th, 13, 8:18 PM
roger
 
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Re: How to: Dent repair using the hammer off dolly method

Hello, I am a firefighter by trade but do paint and body as a hobbie and love beating on metal, yes Im twisted , my question is most of the metal shaping I see is with older thicker metal, is it possible to do repair on new sheet metal to the extent that i have seen here ? with little to no putty ? I learned at a body shop where it was get it close and bondo, never really liked that method as I am more interested in the art than the money since its a hobbie for me.
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post #58 of 60 (permalink) Old Mar 7th, 13, 8:19 PM
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Re: How to: Dent repair using the hammer off dolly method

Probably not, Eric. It's behind braces and other metal, I would think I'd need to remove them to get at those parts, but I don't know, you're the expert

I'm continuing to improve my metal working, some of my stuff actually looks remotely like it's supposed to.

I'll grab some pics when I'm out in the garage this evening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpete, Dean, Derek69SS, hoffbug, rubadub, Grandsport, Thomas Jefferson, 1badss396, MEJ1990TM, and mrdjc99
As usual, Andy is right
If it doesn't fit, force it. If it breaks, it needed to be replaced anyway.

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post #59 of 60 (permalink) Old Mar 8th, 13, 1:53 PM Thread Starter
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Eric
 
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Re: How to: Dent repair using the hammer off dolly method

Quote:
Originally Posted by fireman164 View Post
Hello, I am a firefighter by trade but do paint and body as a hobbie and love beating on metal, yes Im twisted , my question is most of the metal shaping I see is with older thicker metal, is it possible to do repair on new sheet metal to the extent that i have seen here ? with little to no putty ? I learned at a body shop where it was get it close and bondo, never really liked that method as I am more interested in the art than the money since its a hobbie for me.

The issue with the newer metal is NOT thickness it's that the alloys used in current production have changed vastly.

The older steel up til around the early 80's used a mild steel called draw quality steel. This was a soft mild steel which made the stamping process much easier. Today's cars and today's technology uses high strength steel which contains a higher carbon content along with other alloys.

The new metal can be made thinner and yet exceed the strength of older type of metals. The downside to this type of metal is that it is work hardened very quickly and trying to repair any damage like dents only work hardens more. Work hardening is basically the grain pattern in the metal or the atoms move around making the metal harder and brittle.

To answer your question can newer metals be metal finished, yes and no, it depends on the alloy. Some types of the newer stuff especially aluminum is throw away. I did a repair on my Dodge truck back in 07 on the bedside, a small hand sized dent. Had complete backside access and it took probably three to four times as long to metal finish that dent.

I'll say it again because every time someones says it or I read I just want to scream. The so called "thicker" metal in older cars does NOT make it easier to work with.

Grab a piece of mild steel in 18 ga and 20 ga and try to form it. 18 ga is far far harder to work with then 20. I did a repair on a 35 Farmall tractor hood that had a dent about the size of softball and some other minor damage. The hood was made from 14 ga steel. I have never worked so hard and invested so much time into a project, I bet I have over 70-80 hours in that hood alone just repairing the dent damage. If that hood would have been 18 or 20 ga rather then 14 ga it would have a hour or two project.

The vast majority of exterior panels used by the big three from the 30's to the 80's used 19 ga. I've measured some exterior panels on some newer stuff and gotten 18, 20 and 22

Older tin is NOT easier to work on because its thicker, its easier to work because its a very mild steel that doesn't work harden quickly and when it does you can remove it unlike the newer stuff...Eric

Currently working on How to videos and replacement sheetmetal panels

1970 chevelle getting Sliced and Diced Anything But STOCK
1970 chevelle SS455 not a typo its a BUICK BABY
1949 and 1972 chevy trucks
Pictures of my work
http://s969.photobucket.com/user/sev...?sort=6&page=1
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post #60 of 60 (permalink) Old Mar 8th, 13, 2:32 PM
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Re: How to: Dent repair using the hammer off dolly method

I've got a couple of stubborn areas on this fender, one too high and one too low. Can't seem to get either of them to move. The low spot is in the area of the SS emblems (1969) where the holes are welded up. I've been trying to work it flat without much luck. I tried stretching out the welded areas first and that helped a bit then I tried shrinking with a butane torch and that helped a little more but now it's stuck. Seems like the metal is stretched and there is too much to get it to lie flat. I'll post a picture later this evening but I thought I'd post while I was thinking about it, maybe you can think of a few things off the top of your head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpete, Dean, Derek69SS, hoffbug, rubadub, Grandsport, Thomas Jefferson, 1badss396, MEJ1990TM, and mrdjc99
As usual, Andy is right
If it doesn't fit, force it. If it breaks, it needed to be replaced anyway.

SuperAndy's Garage

Automotive Archaeology
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